Cate Blanchett in "Mrs. America 4-5"

We continue recaping and reviewing Hulu's Mrs. America starring Cate Blanchett. This week we tackle episodes 4 and 5 dealing with Betty Freidan (Tracey Ullman) and Brenda Feigen Fasteau (Ari Graynor) debating Phyllis Schlafly (Blanchett). Hosted by Murtada Elfadl with guest staff writer at Backstage, Casey Mink.

Transcript

spk_1:   0:00
What do you do?

spk_0:   0:01
On Sunday, we talked about Cate Blanchett. The act, the costumes, the awards, but mostly Blanchett of it all. Have not, I think, is a Erica. This is Sundays escaped, and I'm your host. More Todd. I'll welcome to Sunday's With Scape, the podcast series about the films of Cate Blanchett, and this week we continue re capping and reviewing. Her first foray into TV was Mrs America, and in this episode we will discuss episodes four and five off the Hulu's Siri's and my guest today is staff writer at backstage. Casey Mink. Hi, Casey.

spk_1:   0:52
I thank you so much for having me.

spk_0:   0:54
You're welcome. I'm excited to have you to talk about Mrs America. Just talking to you on social media. I think you're excited about this show.

spk_1:   1:03
Yeah. I mean, as anyone who follows me on Twitter. First of all, I'm sorry if you dio um but, you know, I I am obsessed with the show and I have not stopped tweeting about it for the last 34 weeks over long. It's been on, so yes, safe to say I am a fan. I'm very excited to get into it.

spk_0:   1:21
I am too. And I think these two episodes that we're discussing today is to me where the show hit its stride. So the 1st 3 episodes were more of us set up specially for Phyllis, the character played by Kate. And this this week, I think it hit its stride and gave us a lot of drama.

spk_1:   1:38
Yeah, I was just gonna say, though the most recent episode five was probably my favorite of the season so far.

spk_0:   1:47
Yeah, I would agree, But let's discuss Episode four for us.

spk_1:   1:51
I know getting ahead of myself for usual.

spk_0:   1:54
So Episode four is called Batty, and it's about the mother of the feminist movement, very free, downplayed by Tracey Ullman and that episode gives us the show is doing these parallels between Phyllis and the women of the family ist movement. So in every episode, there is a sort of a parallel between what's happening to her and what's happening in the family's movement. And the parallel in the Betty episode was the relationship between those Betty and Phyllis and their daughters. Well, and then we get, of course, Betty against the advise of Bella Abzug and Gloria Steinem and all the women in the feminist movement decides to debate Phyllis Schlafly. And then we see the debate, which is a great I think it was a long scene. Maybe he was 10 15 minutes. Great. See, for those actresses. So General Impression, what were your thoughts about the Betty episode, Casey?

spk_1:   2:48
Well, first of all, I mean, this is gonna come up every single time we talk about any character on on the Siri's. But every actor is so incredible. I mean, Tracy Omen, just unbelievable. But what you're talking about, I think the framing of the show where where, As you said, every episode sort of is a parallel between Phyllis and another one of the women is so smart because it really sort of dimensional eyes is all of the characters. And of course, you know, Phyllis, chief among them. And I think as you said again, the sort of climax on the upset was this debate with Betty Andi. It was so well executed. I mean, sometimes these that sort of thing on television can fall really flat a sort of debate in that way. But I was so grip and the tension that they were able to establish felt so authentic. And you could really see how Phyllis and her just withholding drove Betty Teoh to snap essentially at the end. You see, this is the false lure off the women's liberation movement happiness. Because the fact is, girls, the e. R. A. Will not solve your personal problems. It will not hand you a happy home life. It won't give you away a Sunday kind of love, as the popular song goes and hits certainly will not keep your husband for being jealous or patty or dumping you in your middle aged for a new, younger model after you have devoted yourself

spk_0:   4:33
to keeping his home for 20 or 30 years

spk_1:   4:36
because you simply cannot legislate universal sympathy for the middle aged woman. You are correct on one count, I do leave my home on occasion and I travel all over the country and I meet women from all walks of life and you miss for Dan are the unhappiest woman I have ever met. And you are which God, I'd like to burn you at the stake.

spk_0:   5:00
Yeah, I grew the that. The writing is very smart. So to get us to that moment where Betty snaps at Phyllis. They populated the show before that moment with all these signs. So I think the first sign of that Waas the prep scene between Kate and John Slattery playing French Lastly. So they're doing this prep and one of the Achilles heels of Phyllis s presented in the show. Is that about her? About the fact that her father was in a provider and her mother was forced to work to provide for the family, and her husband uses that to get to get together to get emotional and saying to her, You just lost the debate because you got emotional because she refuses to acknowledge that, um, and she's like, Well, Betty wouldn't know this, and Kate plays it so well, all in the phase and in the tightness of the body like she moves for, she shrinks her shoulders and she knew, You know, that looking at this, that this is something that really gets to Phyllis and but that also puts delight in Phyllis, Is that Oh, I gotta get Betty to get emotional.

spk_1:   6:02
Exactly. Exactly. And I just think what you're touching on, which is what I am so far just so impressed with Kate with this show is that everything she's doing and she is doing so much is being done with so few words, whether she is succeeding, whether she feels like she is failing, whether she is being manipulated, whether she's working things to her advantage, whether she doesn't really know what's what she is doing, whether she's out of her depth, she is doing almost all of it without saying as such, and it is just remarkable. And I mean, we'll talk about the next episode, of course, but contrasting that episode with this one that we're talking about right now. I mean, it's almost sort of polar opposite experiences that she has, and she doesn't both. Just with that, that tight lipped sort of thing. It's It's remarkable.

spk_0:   7:00
Yeah, I mean, longtime listeners of this podcast would know. I always talk about Kate. Being a full body actor is that she acts with her body. And actually, this week I listened to an interview that she did with Yale students on Zoom, where she talked about how she learned to use her hand to use her frame to use basically all of her body because she was strained to the theater actor, and she's like when when I moved to movies. What I took with me is that because in theater you're so far away from the audience that they can't see your face. I learned to act with my body, and it completely shows in this show. What other moment that I really loved is when they brought the John Birch Society and one off the women who works with her said, Oh, well, I'm a member of the Joint Burst Society and there was also another tight sort of movement with her body. While she's like Oh, you know, it's just buried this

spk_1:   7:58
right, right, right. She is just doing amazing work with so few words. And yeah, I mean, I'm not surprised to hear that she does rely on her theater training on camera. I mean a backstage. I write so much about actors and sort of the differences in there training and mediums. And I really think that yeah, learning to do more with your body is when we see it in some of the best performers that we have working on camera so crucial

spk_0:   8:31
and let's go back to Tracy Oldman because I found her performance to be so moving. First of all, I think the writing was beautiful in this episode. Really, Um, and let's credit the writer than it was because there never credited Boo Killed Brew, who rode the episode of Betty because portraying beautifully done people just know her. Is this mother of the movement as the writer of the feminine mystique. But this in this episode we see her as somebody whose heart isn't broken because she longs to be in a relationship with someone. She goes out on this date, and then Tracy is faces so beautifully when, later on, somebody asks her about the date and she's like, Oh, he never called back, But it's because I because I wasn't interested, either. And it's so beautiful to sort of see that on her face.

spk_1:   9:15
Totally. And, I mean, not just she's not just, you know, credited as like the mother of the movement that Yeah, I mean, she is sort of regarded, as you know, the founder of first wave feminism, but she also takes a lot of well deserved heat for, you know, she wasn't super inclusive, and it wasn't super intersectional feminism, and you know we've come along with, and I think that that sort of complexity is also really, really beautifully related in Tracy Omens performance. I mean, she she sees her own sort of relevance diminishing, you know, I mean, there's Gloria's much more flashy and likable than she is. And yeah, it's like just the subtle disappointment that Tracy is able to exude in that performance while still being such a strong character, a strong and honestly hardheaded hair there. But she does just you can see the vulnerability Think about her being on the date with that man, and she's having such a nice time. And you know, she's having such a nice time, which is what makes it so aching when she, you know, you find out later in the episode that he never called. She asked to just sort of put on the strong face and go forward because, I mean, that is, I guess, her whole ideology and even the feminist movement. Beautiful performance from Tracey Ullman.

spk_0:   10:44
Yes, and Tracy is a comedian, and we forget that, and I remember that, and I love that went in that scene with all the women. I think there is a at a barbecue where she uses at rib. She's eating ribs, and she uses the space of rib to just show us how Betty wants to be in the conversation. But she doesn't also want to show how needy she is to the other women, and I'm like, So this is how a comedian would take this role, and I totally, even though it's not a comedic moment. But I could see that this is why she she used that property, was also very funny, but also very appointment I loved. Her performance was great.

spk_1:   11:20
I mean, the entire all of the casting on this show. Some of the actors are not necessarily the first person you would think to play that person, but it's so right and it's so interesting, like, yeah, I think that having someone with a background in comedy play this role was was really innovative and exciting idea.

spk_0:   11:44
Yes, absolutely. And you know, Tracey Ullman doesn't really look like Betty Freedom, but, you know, obviously they gave her the hair and everything and whose odubel also doesn't look so much like Charlie Chisholm. While, for instance, Rose Byrne looks a lot like forest item But I think all the actresses air so great because they brought the soul of these characters, even if sometimes they don't look like them.

spk_1:   12:07
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. But I mean, Rose Byrne looks so much like Gloria Steinem. It is very scary.

spk_0:   12:14
Yeah, and one of the things that, you know, we saw Betty was her husband's new wife and sort of the the new wife dries to embrace her. And that is also another pointed moment for Tracy to play into, like, you know, she was angry at that woman, But then the woman diffuses her and just the change on her face it was so beautiful to behold.

spk_1:   12:35
Can't be mad. Okay, woman, because she's so lovely.

spk_0:   12:40
Yeah, And then I was really moved. I think the show these really also very good at the endings off every episode in this episode ends. You know, Miriam Shore appears, is a friend of Betty's and a neighbor, and she's the one who sort of tells Gloria Well, have you sank the bad Eve because she started the soul We get to do where we get to do because of the past that she forged. And so Gloria does take that advice and colds, Betty at the end. After basically, Betty lost the debate because she got emotional and and lost the debate to Phyllis. And she doesn't want to talk to anyone in Gloria Kolesar. And instead of talking to her about the debate, you just thanks her. And then, you know, the song starts in the song is what the world needs now. And I was like, You know, I had tears in my eyes because it was such a beautiful moment.

spk_1:   13:28
And now the funny thing is, that day I had spent a lot of time revisiting the Remember at the 2016 Democratic National Convention. There was that big performance of all of the Broadway community, like Adina Menzel and Audra McDonald. And they all went to the DNC and they saying, What the world needs now is love and I sent all day just before he watching that crazy performance. And then the episode ended with that song, and I I lost my mind, obviously. But yeah, I mean, I think that the it was really important for the episode to establish that Betty had I mean for, you know, lack of better term she was past her prime, and her Ah, lot of her contributions were sort of. I mean, they were bygone. And there was the another really poignant moment where she is looking for a dress to wear to the debate. And she pulls one out of her closet. And you have that flash back to when she when the feminine mystique had just come out and she was on a talk show and she was killing it on the talk show. And then that in contrast with, as you said, she lost the debate. It was just really, really any painful.

spk_0:   14:41
Yeah, yeah, she lost it in a way that was obviously true to live, but also just it breaks your heart because she's obviously the smarter person. She's obviously the more paper. She's obviously the person who should win this debate in a walk. Because Phyllis is not smart. Phyllis doesn't know what she's talking about. You just keeps making things up in blowing smoke and trying to defuse everything. But somehow she wins.

spk_1:   15:05
You think she's not smart, like I think that she's not soup. I mean, clearly, she she's not facts based. I mean, she's taking things up. I mean, she's definitely really savvy. She's incredibly savvy, and I mean, I don't know that Maybe I'm just so taken by Kates portrayal. Ever problem? I would say that she isn't smart. I think that she's not, you know, an altruistic person in any way. I think she's basically evil.

spk_0:   15:37
Yeah, I think she's more of a manipulator than actually an intelligent person, like she knows how to read situations and manipulate them to her advantage, which makes her savvy. But I don't think it's She's somebody who, like can actually debate someone on facts or on any intellect.

spk_1:   15:55
What you're saying is a perfect sort of Segway to the following episode in which we see another debate, and it's exactly what you're saying in the face of actual sort of ironclad fax. And as someone who knows how to debate with their head and not their heart, buddy Phyllis is, you know, she doesn't have a leg to stand on. She absolutely wilts in the face of of fact.

spk_0:   16:22
Yeah, absolutely. So let's move on to the next episode's. The next episode is Phyllis and Fred and Brenda and Mark, and the title is a homage to the 1969 film Bob and Carol and Ted and Alice,

spk_1:   16:33
recently seen off Broadway. Actually, they turned that into a musical. Yeah, that's

spk_0:   16:37
right. I missed it. I didn't see it.

spk_1:   16:40
Yes, and

spk_0:   16:41
but the actual movie ends with what the world needs now. So if you're watching these two episodes together, that song ends. Betty didn't ends Bob and Carol, but it is about you were introduced to Brenda Fagan Fastow. I love that name. She has appeared in previously played by Ira Graner in a couple of the first episodes, but this is where her character sort of comes to the center, and she's an a C. L. U lawyer and was one of founders of Miss. She's married to this guy, Mark, played by Adam Brody. The families movement at that point has realized that you know, Phyllis Schlafly is not going away, and she keeps winning, and they need to stop her. So Gloria and Brenda Fagan, facile Go to Meet was this lobbyist, played by Jack Lacey in Washington. He's in the Nixon administration, and Ruth Baby Ginsburg makes a cameo in that scene, and he basically said somebody needs to debate her Gloria doesn't want a debate. Her Betty has already failed. So Brenda volunteers to debate her. And then Phyllis is husband sort of guides Phyllis to bring him along for the debate. So it becomes to married couples versus to married couples because Phyllis feels a little bit a little intimidated by Brenda Fastow's credentials.

spk_1:   17:58
Well, and as it turns out, she had every right idea to be intimidated by her. I mean, as we said at the top of the episode, I loved. I mean, this was my favorite episode of Of the Siri's to date. I mean, Well, Ari Greener. What a powerhouse we've known we've definitely known, but she was just Oh my God, I was so affected by her performance and just the layers and the depth in the nuance. But I mean, yes, she she came in with just fax un agenda, and when she called, fills on her blood, Phyllis could not even come up with any sort of viable excuse. And she was humiliated. And the scene when they finished the debate and the two couples are walking. And first you see, you know, Phyllis just grimacing, and she is in, like, agony because she's been so badly defeated and then you see Ah, Brenda just kind of give that little smart. And it was such a perfect contrast to, you know, the episode that we just talked about where she we're feels, had done so well in the debate. And she was so satisfied. And then just on a dime, she was in the other person's shoes on the other side of the table, having just been badly defeated in the real world, in a court of law, you need to cite a case to support your arguments aside. The case. Well, I think it was fully first of Langham or Lancaster. Something like that. No, there is no such case. Oh, yes, there is. But you see, did you just make up? I'm not a lawyer. No, I'm the wife of a lawyer. And I really do think that's more fun. We're gonna get Agrio eyes. There is no fully versus like case. Also a fact is that you are not really housewife. You are a full time lobbyist working to defeat the e r. A. So the businessman can continue to make millions of dollars discriminating against women when they work when they buy insurance and when they give birth. No. Well, I don't work for anyone. Great. So the party's well, maybe you should stick to baking and leave interpreting the law to the lawyers.

spk_0:   20:05
Yeah, I love Eric Graner to agree with you and your weasel. What you were just saying. I love the whole episode cause it's not just the debate. So Ari shows his brand a sort of falling in love. She's married to a man, but she meets this woman in D. C. Ah, photographer who worked at Miss in the past, and they have a one night stand that becomes sort of a relationship. And then they meet again with other people in the movement like Mark Margaret Sloan, who we've seen before, and just grain are sort of charting that the falling in love and also sort of the ambition of this woman and her relationship with her husband. It's such a great showcase for her talent. This episode it's amazing.

spk_1:   20:49
And as you pointed out, you know, every episode is parallels. One of the women and Phyllis and this one. It was almost sort of dually paralleled in that yes, it was about Brenda and her husband and Phyllis and her husband. But that's kind of every episode. I think that the the second tiered parallel was also this element of homosexuality, which which was, I mean, I didn't even again just speaking to what Kate says without saying anything. So basically, we find out that one of Phyllis is sons. Eyes is gay. And at the end of the episode, you have this unbelievable scene with Kate talking to her son, not about explicitly about the fact that she knows he's gay, but about how she managed to quit smoking cigarettes the day that she married her husband and how it's, you know, all about restraint, which I mean, obviously. And it's just It was just so and I didn't even really understand, because the way that we find out that he is gay is because a man drops off her son's wallet at the house. I didn't entirely get it, to be quite honest, I'm a little bit dense. Sometimes. I only it only came into very clear focus with that scene at the end, and it was just I mean, it was, you know, just can you guess

spk_0:   22:24
I mean, the show has given us a sign before, in the previous episode, where he was playing the piano in a church where Sarah Poulsen's son is getting married and the way he was looking at Sarah Poulson son, the groom in that scene completely to me was like, OK, I know what you're feeling And then Kate also sees it, or Phyllis also seasons, and I think that's when she realizes that Oh, something's happening Here was my son John, and then it's confirmed to her when that handsome man brings his wallet. I did love that scene, and it was, I think, my favorite Kate moment, and not to get too personal and maudlin in this. It reminded me of a scene from my own sort of life when I was a teenager. My mom is not Phyllis Schlafly's and the conservative not anything like that at all. But I remember when I was 15 16 we had that conversation of was like I know you're gay, but I don't want to say it. And she used the same word that Kate as Phyllis uses here, which is when she said, Be more careful and my mother said that to me. So that seemed really rang true. And I loved it.

spk_1:   23:30
And the thing is about Phyllis is I mean, as we've both sort of said, whether or not she's, you know, particularly smart person. She is definitely very strategic. You don't even know if she is really caring about the fact that he is gay or if it's just that it would reflect so poorly for her movement and what she's trying to do. And that's just not gonna work for her strategy.

spk_0:   23:59
She always have ulterior motives with whatever it is she's doing right, because she's such on a porch in, It's like you shouldn't care about. They are a whether it's ratified or not, you just wants the power

spk_1:   24:08
exactly right. At the end of the day, she does know what this amendment does and does not do, and everything that she is spewing about it is false, as evidenced by the fact that she completely made up a Supreme Court case as evidence and was Kaufman than her bluff was called. I mean, the very would not do anything harmful for her, and she knows that. But it's as you said, a power grab

spk_0:   24:34
Yeah, The other thing is, if we're staying on like you said this these two episodes have a lot of gay characters and gay subplots. And to quote Betty Free Dan, they could have both been titled 11 or Menace. So we had Brenda. We have John Schlafly and also Margaret Sloan, who is played by Bria Simone Henderson. And she is a black activist at Miss who works at Miss Magazine. And so in the previous episode, she had the wonderful scene about tokenism in the workplace.

spk_1:   25:08
Just so good, so good. You going?

spk_0:   25:10
Yeah, it's a great scene, and that scene is where the show is trying to sort of tackle the race question, and it works really well in this in the in the episode. But I just hope that they follow through on that. So Margaret is also a lesbian, and in this episode, in the fifth episode, she's seen leaving New York to go to Oakland, she says, because the schools are better there for her daughter. But you can see in the performance and again in the subtle ways like what I love about the writing of the show is that it doesn't tell you everything you need to figure out things on your Like I just saw that in the performance. Like, you know, she talks about tokenism and then the next episode she leaves and you can tell, you know, this is somebody who's maybe being stifled at Miss Magazine because Gloria Steinem is not giving her the opportunities that she thinks she deserves. And she wants to go forward. Another another world for her in Oakland. And it's so beautifully played by Henderson.

spk_1:   26:03
Yeah, and I mean, it's exactly what you're what you're saying. It's like you really have to be sort of paying attention to catch every contextual clue that the show is giving you. But, yeah, it's like the episode where she, you know, said she wants to write about tokenism and she's sitting in a room full of white women. And then, you know, one of them says her. You don't feel that way, though, right? And she has to be like No, of course, of course not. And then it's just like she's really just asking to for recognition and receiving it. And I think that this, I mean, I obviously have not seen every, you know, fictionalization off this of this time period. But I feel like this is one of the first major depictions to tackle the fact that this form of feminism was not super intersectional and inclusive and was really white feminism and Gloria Steinem beautiful. Gloria Steinem was the face of it. And yeah, to say that black women and women of color were left out of the conversation would be, you know, understatement. And I'm really glad that the show is in some way. Uh, you know, giving that some attention. And as you said, I hope that it that it stays with with it. I hope that it doesn't just drop it.

spk_0:   27:35
I hope so, too. I mean, we have gotten the titles of the episode, and there is no Margaret Sloan episode. There's no Flo Kennedy episode, so I hope they remain within the context, even if they don't get their own sort of episode.

spk_1:   27:50
Yeah, because it's really it's really important. And then when she does ultimately quit miss in this episode and you know she walks out and then Gloria goes to meet her boyfriend, who was black and she says, Ah, Margaret, just quit because she's moving to open their better schools there. And he says, Is that what she told you that when she said

spk_0:   28:10
Yeah, and he knows

spk_1:   28:13
we Of course he knows. And Gloria knows, too. And it's, you know, frustrating to see the person not recognize that because she's smart. But I also think that that's authentic to the period of the time. Like, I don't think that's the right. It's neglecting that. I think that that is is pretty sort of fact based evidence by, you know, history that Yeah, black woman worth sort of tokenism of that time?

spk_0:   28:47
Yeah, the show in Episode four was Betty, and then, in Episode five shows is the factions the in the women's movement. So the black women led by Flo Kennedy have sort of splintered off, and they choose Charlie Chisholm to be their speaker in in an organization that they're setting up. But even within that in that scene, Sundays that flow where Niecy Nash sort of holds court as flow. You see that some of the women sort of don't accept Margaret Sloan, who is an out lesbian, so there are fractions there,

spk_1:   29:19
and they're exactly

spk_0:   29:21
and also the Gloria Bella faction also has fractions because they don't like Betty. They also Bella, sort of. It's implied. And there is an episode about Bella, so we'll see more of Margo Martindale. It's implied she's the one who sort of brings up the Lavender Menace s So I'm like. So there is a little bit of non acceptance from both factions for the LGBT Q. Women off the movement,

spk_1:   29:48
for sure, and I think that that's and it's still, unfortunately, something that the feminist movement is grappling with today. I mean, and it's also been expanded Teoh, because fortunately, this wasn't just this one thing a thing at the time. But you know now Teoh trans women and you know non binary folds and gender nonconforming gender fluid. And we're still working to make feminism a place for all women and women identifying people, and we're nowhere near that. Still,

spk_0:   30:40
I just love scene Sundays that flow nisi Nash taking Center court. I love nisi. Nash is still funny. She's so warm as Flo Kennedy and I was really hoping one of the episodes will be about Flo Kennedy so but I hope we see more of anything asking to future

spk_1:   30:56
well I love that Niecy Nash just works so much like you. Just see her top of fun. You know, 45 shows a year, and it's always such a pleasure to watch her on screen.

spk_0:   31:07
Also a pleasure to which was a Deuba as Shirley Chisholm, who in Episode four was Betty. It's it's shown is that they're investigating her campaign after she lost her bid for president and the told that that's taking on Shirley and again like we talked about. How is this show? It doesn't tell us everything, and this is all just the look on yuzu a dubious face. She starches exhausted, and it tells you everything you need to know. And it, of course, made me go to Wikipedia toe. Look what happened to surely Post 1972.

spk_1:   31:36
I know that's the thing. It's like people never talk about her today. It's so sad.

spk_0:   31:42
Yeah, the other thing on the race front was With Show is that in this episode that we talked about the parallels, and there is a parallel between Phyllis and Fred and Mark and Brenda. But also the third marriage that comes into focus in this episode is the relationship between Gloria and her boyfriend, Franklin, played by Jay Ellis. And so they are shown in several scenes hanging with Brenda and Mark. So they are definitely do that sort of like couples hanging together thing. So everybody knows that they are a couple. Yet the show never comment on the fact that he's black like no character brings it up. Gloria and him don't bring it up like glory is the face of the movement having a black boyfriend. I think in 1974 would be something that might be used against her or by other people who are progressive might be used as something to show how progressive they are. But it's never commented on,

spk_1:   32:36
I know, and I really because obviously that has struck me as well. And I really wonder that is a decision made by the show to try and depict Stay with me here to try and depict. Obviously, Gloria Steinem wasn't is a radical to an extent, but I really wonder if that is the show. Trying to depict Gloria's posturing as radical, you know, pain to know, because yet obviously today, interracial couples are still ah thing very much so we have not moved that far. And yeah, and not ever addressing it. I really do think that it is trying. Teoh make a statement that Gloria was above commenting on it in the same way that she's above. It's like saying, you know, like, Oh, I don't see race. Of course you dio. Yeah, yeah, you don't see It is actually just is privilege.

spk_0:   33:33
Yeah, I hear what you're saying, but I think somebody would comment on it. So we'll see. I mean this. We're only five episodes saying so because J. Ellis seems to be part of the fabric of the show. Like he's appeared in several episodes, so,

spk_1:   33:45
yeah, for sure. And speaking of that couple, then we see her at the end of this episode, having cheated on him,

spk_0:   33:53
Yes. So again, a parallel. You know, Brenda sleeps was Jules, and she sleeps with the Republican lobbyist. Gloria does

spk_1:   34:02
the fair. Jack Lacey is Is there a cute

spk_0:   34:05
even if he is a Republican from Toledo,

spk_1:   34:08
right? See? Okay. And I actually I'm I'm working this out as we go, but I actually think that that supports my thesis statement, which is that Gloria does posture quite a bit,

spk_0:   34:21
Yes, and and I'm sure, like Gloria has written order autobiography. There's so much writing about her. So if there is one character, the show cannot invent something for its Gloria Steinem because there's just so much writing about her, from her and from other people.

spk_1:   34:36
Exactly. And I also think that that's what makes Rose Byrne's job probably the hardest of these women, because, I mean, no one, even even Phyllis was probably the second most well known, would you say, like which most people wouldn't be able to pick her out today? I mean, everyone knows what quarter Steinem looked like.

spk_0:   34:58
She's great. I mean, Rose Byrne is great. I was not sure about the voice of the beginning, but then I just realize it's spot on.

spk_1:   35:06
No, I know that weird sort of little like grass be exhausted. Exacerbated voice. I love this show. A majority of people in this country support every woman's right to control her own body.

spk_0:   35:19
Is there anything else about Episode five that we didn't talk about?

spk_1:   35:22
I think that it was kind of everyone's best episode so far, including Phyllis slash Kate. I mean, I think that the range of what she had to do in this episode was just incredible. And we don't get to see her vulnerable that much in the show or at least, you know, outwardly vulnerable. But then, after she loses the debate and she's arguing with her husband, she said, You let me die out there like what do you? What do you doing? Yeah, yeah, I was sort of one of the first times where she was really floundering and yeah, it was impressive. I mean, obviously, that's not gonna remain the case, but it was. I'm glad to have seen that side of her, but she's because it wouldn't be interesting if she just had a straight shot towards, you know, stopping this thing. It's like there is ebbing and flowing. Happened on both sides of of the Movement's

spk_0:   36:22
Yeah, I mean, the ending of this episode is also again endings. Indicia were so strong, so Phyllis loses the debate like there's no argument Brenda has won this debate. Phyllis loses, But the scene the last scene is Brenda and Gloria, talking about how it was not read. The area was not ratified in Illinois, so they lost in Illinois and they did this debate to win Illinois. So they lost it, and they're talking about will win next year. So Phyllis, despite losing, has one.

spk_1:   36:53
Exactly. That's what the show is just broadly so resonant today because of the end of the day. Nothing matters. Factor don't matter. I mean, Brenda, very clearly called Phyllis is love and said, That's that didn't happen. What do you have been talking about? It's completely not true, and it had no effect on the final outcome. Yeah,

spk_0:   37:18
so this is a kid Blanchett podcast. So I want to talk a little bit about Kate's gestural acting in in this episode. So there are so many moments we talked about how she acts with her body. But one of the things that I love about Kate is that she is always she uses gesture so well and two that really jumped out at me, and I had to like, rewind several times. Is that first of all, what? When she was preparing for the debate against Brenda, she smooth is her lipstick off her teeth with her finger in a moment that is a little bit psychotic from her.

spk_1:   37:56
But it was so who knows, but it felt so authentic to that character in that moment. Yeah, totally. It was just It was something that she could control. And she was gonna god damn control it, You know,

spk_0:   38:13
she did. And then later on, after she has an argument with her husband, like you said earlier, you Why did you leave me out to dry? She slaps herself.

spk_1:   38:23
That was insane. That was insane. Okay, actually, we need to talk about that. I kind of I kind of forgot about that. We need to talk about that. That was unbelievable. Do you think that she did that in the moment? Was she directed to do that? I need to know about that choice.

spk_0:   38:40
I mean, I don't know, but as somebody who follows Kate, I think that's what's probably her choice. But the writing again in this show is so sharp and smart that maybe was in the screenplay. Kate has the psychological profile of Phyllis, and it could have just probably something that I think happened in the moment. Just, you know, she probably spent months diving into this woman, and she felt that that's probably what Phyllis would have done in that moment. What do you think?

spk_1:   39:06
Yeah, yeah, completely. I mean, right, it wasn't just, you know, a crazy choice that she wanted to do. To be eccentric like that was definitely based on everything she knows about the character. But it was wild.

spk_0:   39:20
It was. But this is what I love about Kate is an actor, is that she always gives the fans something. So I think this moment was for her fans, because it's gonna be Jif to forever.

spk_1:   39:32
I know. I can't. I mean it yet probably already. Is the episodes been out for, what, 48 hours? That is exactly what you're talking about. It's like it's still television at the end of the day. Like, give us something a little salaciousness every now and again never killed anyone like this show is depicting things that really happened that are so crucial and remain relevant today. But, you know, at the end of the day it's TV, and I want to see those lovely slappers off a little bit.

spk_0:   40:05
Yes, we do want to see her because there is a yin and yang because that scene with her son was so moving personally to me and and I was moved by Phyllis and her son, and then I'm like, Why am I feeling tender feelings for Phyllis Schlafly? Damn you, Cate Blanchett. But so happy to to see that scene where she sort of slaps herself. And that sort of brings you back. Oh, yeah. This is somebody we do not need to like,

spk_1:   40:28
right? But you know what? I think that what you're getting at, which is another thing. I mean, I'm not the first person to say this about the show, but in practicing dimensional izing all of these characters, we're going to see Phyllis Schlafly as whole woman and a whole human being who is questionable in her motives and her ideology and her beliefs, to say the least. But she is a whole human being, and it's not. I mean, yeah, I've felt empathy for her more than once at this point, and it wouldn't be interesting if it was just a one sided building story. In the same way that you know, we're seeing parts of of Gloria Steinem that are less than stellar. These air, all full fledged human beings who you know are not perfect or not roundly sadistic and Yeah, they're human beings. Just as every human being I hate in politics today is also, believe it or not, a human being?

spk_0:   41:36
Yeah, absolutely. And who wants to watch a show for nine episodes about just a villain like that is not interesting you have. It has to be a multifaceted character to hold interest.

spk_1:   41:47
Exactly. And that's why you have to have really an actor to play someone like Phil's. Lastly, because if the actor wasn't like, so inherently likeable themselves, then you know you pretty much it would be a non starter. But Cate Blanchett is just so charismatic on screen, of course, that it's like even if she is just being the biggest asshole still just want a watcher. Let me ask you this. When Lenin

spk_0:   42:15
started the Revolution in 1917 do you think he told the people, Fight with us and we'll give you food shortages, censorship,

spk_1:   42:23
terror? Oh, no, he promised them Peace, land and bread. Now it starts with a simple piece of legislation like the e. R. A. And then the left feels emboldened to eliminate alimony child support in the widow's social security. And before you know it, we're living in a feminist totalitarian nightmare. Thank you for having

spk_0:   42:43
me on your ship. Yes, absolutely. And so I want to ask you some questions of AC aid that I usually ask my guests on the show. If you don't mind, Where's what is your favorite performance? By Cate Blanchett

spk_1:   43:08
Blue Jasmine is definitely my favorite. It just I only have seen it twice because it's too. It's too painful, honestly watch. But I just think what she the you know, gradual sort of dissent that she is able Teoh to fit in that in that movie and on that, you know, to use a buzzword journey, I think one of the performances that everyone should should see everyone.

spk_0:   43:43
Yeah, I love that perform. So I think it's my favorite, too. And have you seen her do Blanche Dubois at Bam?

spk_1:   43:49
No, I wish. Is it available for streaming or something?

spk_0:   43:54
A. No, it's not. But I think she's so great a jasmine because she played Blanche first. Like a few years. I think it was 45 years before Jasmine. She played Blanche, which is kind of a jasmine character. Isa Blanche character.

spk_1:   44:09
I know it's like one of the ones where it's like I kick myself every minute of my life for missing it. I know she's so I mean, obviously, she's incredible on screen, but also to see her on stage. I did see her in the present, and it's just like, Oh, that's why you're a movie star. Not that she's any, you know, has any airs about her or anything like that. It's just like, Oh, no, you are a star and you exude magic from your pores that I can never understand. Yeah,

spk_0:   44:38
she's amazing. Who is your favorite Kate scene partner?

spk_1:   44:43
Because I just recently rewatched it since it is on Netflix love, Miss Kate opposite Mr Matt Damon in talented Mr Ripley.

spk_0:   44:54
Oh, my God. Yes.

spk_1:   44:55
So good. So good. And that's just also proof that, like she done been good for decades now.

spk_0:   45:05
Yeah, she's so amazing in the talented Mr Ripley in a very small part. But you just like you miss her when she's not on screen. And she and Damon, to your point, have such great chemistry together.

spk_1:   45:16
Well, I don't even think that it's like I mean, yes, it's like amount of screen time, I guess You know smaller, comparatively, but like no. Yeah, I think of her. It's so seminal in that movie and oh my God, Yeah, Her scenes in that Damon. OK, well, I can exhale now. I got

spk_0:   45:31
you did. And at Sunday's rescate, we did an episode on The Talented Mr Ripley with Jose Seles, who's my friend and also Casey's friend

spk_1:   45:41
Love Jose. We always will. Back when we were allowed out of the house, we always used to talk about our manicures, was excused to get manicures. That's fun. Love him. I have to listen to that.

spk_0:   45:53
Is there someone you would like to see? Her work was maybe on stage, since you see a lot of

spk_1:   45:59
theater. Yes, yes, yes. Okay, Who is my favorite female stage actress? I mean, I just everyone knows that I love Miss Katrina Lank, and I feel like the two of them, if they're cheekbones, could both fit on the things. Eight. That would probably be it. And they could play like, basically, like, you know, European sisters at the turn of the century or something.

spk_0:   46:29
Yes, I love that. That's a great, great answer. And wasn't

spk_1:   46:33
I don't know, I just answer Katrina language. Every question I'm asking you,

spk_0:   46:37
wasn't she? As the French say sublime doing Joanna with her guitar and that sometimes sing along

spk_1:   46:44
up. I mean OK, fine. If you insist. Yes. No, she waas Hi. Hey. A Joe i e you. I was convinced that way can Satisfied enough to dream, Theo. Great show. Great show great actors all. I'm so excited toe to keep watching it.

spk_0:   47:47
Me too. Thank you so much for coming on Sundays escape and well before league

spk_1:   47:52
you for having me and for letting me somehow work between a link into a podcast about Cate Blanchett

spk_0:   47:57
Way Love it. I love both Kate and Katrina, so that was well done. Before we go, please tell our listeners Wait, They confined you and your work.

spk_1:   48:07
Yes, as I've mentioned a couple times now, I'm extremely, very, very much too active on Twitter. Um, you can find me at at Casey underscore mink. Um and you can find all of my writing at a backstage dot com.

spk_0:   48:24
Thank you so much, Casey. And you can find me on Twitter at EMI. Underscore says and follow the podcast on Twitter and Instagram at Sunday's escape. And until next time Thank you